Curse

Hell Raiser · Feb 20, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Isn't the whole point of things like Lvl 20 cap to prevent grinding? the way things are now requires alot of grinding with all of your characters. It is not a requirement to get a certain title or get through the game with several characters, but why do we have to grind if we want to do something at the end of the game? or grind for those damned Sunspear/Faction/LB points just so we can get further or be more efficient in high level areas?

I would love to see at least the ability to skip through the story line, myself and many other casual players simply do not have time to grind 10 characters through all 3 storylines just so we can play in the better areas of the map. I was so amazed when I saw how GW was set up for the first time, FREE online play, and a lvl 20 cap (No grinding!!). When I look at it now, it is still an amazing game but there is too much grinding involved for me to get characters through every chapter.

Edge Martinez · Feb 20, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucia

I see that the majority does not share my opinion. Basically what made me decide to stick to one character was when I considered playing a mesmer in Domain of Anguish. I have a Canthan mesmer, and in order to play DoA with her, I'd have to cap the elite skill in the bar from Tyria, and complete Nightfall with her, and all just to play at one outpost with a mesmer. I dunno, but it seems that these demands are quite heavy when all I want to do is enjoy playing one aspect of the game with a mesmer. I'm sure others have had a similar experience as well.

What is the reason for this? Are they looking for a certain skill to play in a certain team build? I ask only because up until like a week ago, my warrior only had 1 sword skill and 1 axe skill that you basically get for free during training at low levels. I've never been shut out for running hammers, through basically 3 campaigns. I also ask because I'm thinking of bringing my mesmer up the Nightfall ranks next, and don't want to get left out in the cold.

Also, Tempy, you've definitely made me reconsider my feelings about outposts with your age idea. I think it's a neat idea and would not object if it were implemented. The only problem I see is in Nightfalls most missions will not let you join if you didn't follow the storyline.

EDIT: Good points there too Hell Raiser.

Shadowspawn X · Feb 20, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

Isn't the whole point of things like Lvl 20 cap to prevent grinding? the way things are now requires alot of grinding with all of your characters. It is not a requirement to get a certain title or get through the game with several characters, but why do we have to grind if we want to do something at the end of the game? or grind for those damned Sunspear/Faction/LB points just so we can get further or be more efficient in high level areas?

I would love to see at least the ability to skip through the story line, myself and many other casual players simple do not have time to grind 10 characters through all 3 storylines just so we can play in the better areas of the map. I was so amazed when I saw how GW was set up for the first time, FREE online play, and a lvl 20 cap (No grinding!!). When I look at it now, it is still an amazing game but there is too much grinding involved for me to get characters through every chapter.

The only person who is making it a grind fest is you by creating !0 characters. It has nothing to do with game mechanics, you knew they were going to be half-baked and neglected when you made them. The solution to your dilema is delete some toons and get your account to a managable size.

Hell Raiser · Feb 20, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

The only person who is making it a grind fest is you by creating !0 characters. It has nothing to do with game mechanics, you knew they were going to be half-baked and neglected when you made them. The solution to your dilema is delete some toons and get your account to a managable size.

Yeah.. Sorry I didn't specify but that was an exageration from an earlier post about someone having 10toons with most through all 3 chapters. I'm sorry I don't like playing one character, I love my monk but I would prefer to dish out some Warrior melee or some Necro hexes (my 3 first characters). I love changing proffessions and playing with their skills, but it gets OLD doing the same missions over and over no matter your prof.

johnactor · Feb 20, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Some great comments. As a father of 3 who plays Guild Wars specifically because it's manageable with the other stuff and my job (at EA, which is fabulous), I've been playing a monk almost exclusively. However, now I understand a lot more about the depth of mesmers, and I'm interested by the variety of things rangers can do, not to mention the dual class things I've wanted to try out ingame, I could really do with some aspects of it all being made quicker for alts.

Also, I've had limited exposure to pvp, and would appreciate being able to take a pve toon that I've 'got the hang of' into pvp to play as it would benefit my monking (less watching of skillbar, more active target switching), not to mention I'd just like to be someone contributing in a new way to a group than spamming heals/prots etc.

I don't want the moon on a stick, but ANET has a game here which is the only alternative to the subscription timesinks that predominate, it should strengthen it's hand in this area.

Braggi · Feb 20, 2007, 10:44 AM // 10:44

I don't care much for the titles being account wide. They are mostly individual achievements and may stay with their respective toons. Your wisdom example is not so different from other games where I have to get items to the respective crafter...

By the same line of reasoning I don't think skill points should be account wide. If I want a skill with a character, this toon has to play and learn it.

On the outpost issue I'm on your side. I made extremely frustrating experiences with a casual guild where people had their main characters in different campaigns. Very often it proved impossible to help each other because an available and needed character class just didn't have the outpost. Bleh...
In my view the whole "unlocking areas" and runner hate design choice from ANET was a bad idea. Unlock once and be done.

In PvP I must unlock any skill just once. But if I want a special elite in PvE, I must reach the area with each toon separately and cap it. While I don't mind the capping, reaching the area without shared outposts will become tedious very fast if I have to do this with 8 or more characters. It's not as if later Elite skills were stronger or something. I need them for special builds. My time for playing is limited anyway, I can do without this grind.

Once more, in any MMO I will definitely not have a highlevel avatar of every existing class, just to see "how it plays", I will lack the resources to achieve this. In GW I can be competitive much faster, still my avatars will not be "finished" - they will just be serviceable.
But the whole outpost system is just a huge, sorted lobby if you look at it. Like in PvP access should be per account.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Feb 20, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

It would be nice if the map were account based instead of per character. That way players wouldn't have to go through the same grind every time they created a new character.

As for A-net being anti multiple character, look at the last event. Those who had multiple charters could gain lunar tokens galore. If all of my mules could have accessed the Monastery I would have been able to get well over a thousand tokens. My mules finally got to do something more than act like storage bins.

Tromador · Feb 20, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

It all depends what you want out of life. Sure if you want all your characters to be all available anywhere, anytime, then you have a lot of work to do.

I don't feel that need. So long as I have a character (at least one) at every outpost, I can always join in with a group of friends and play. Accordingly I tend to concentrate on particular characters.

My tank is the title queen - 2 more masters mission in Elona will net me KOABD.

Then I like to have my monk everywhere, as everyone is always short of monks - in fact, my guild is all about everyone having a monk, so I get my monk through.

Next is my necro. She has everywhere, but no title. Don't even care about titles for her, I just love minions - again, everyone loves minions, so it's a useful character to have about.

In fact, I think, having a decent tank, a decent monk and a decent necro all over means I've pretty much got all the bases covered for any group I might want to be in.

But I have a stack of other characters. I'll be bringing my Tyrian Ele through Elona, but he's missed out Cantha completely and I don't know if he'll ever be there. I took my Canthan Ranger as far as Tombs, but that's because he's my only ranger and I wanted to be the B/P with the Blue Crab

I love the Tyria campaign best, and my Rit & 'Sin are sort of working through every now and again when I fancy the old game, but it's not so important.

The original poster says "with each new campaign, every old character has to be brought through it and every new character has to be brought through the new and old campaigns". This is simply not true. You can if you want, but "has to", no. It's choice.

To be honest, it will become less and less worthwhile to take characters to earlier campaigns, in many ways. No Elite caps for any new classes in Tyria, for example.

So that's my piece about having to shift so many characters through.

On to titles. PvP Title - knock yourselves out. I have no problem with any of those.

PvE though...

Some are just silly. Leaving aside for the moment those that can't even be completed just now, stuff like treasure hunter at 10,000 chests is a big (and expensive) ask, though not stupid like Incorrigible Ale Hound.

Why anyone would want to sit through 6 days (real time!) of the screen being fuzzy is beyond me - and yes I know about the wierd zoning thingy, even so!

2000 plat for Connoisseur of Confectionaries (if you just buy cake). Silly, silly, silly. I suppose people like me, lucky enough to have some disposable income can buy some plat on ebay or whatever and deal with that in short order. I might even do so, would help my tank on the KOABD track. Proves nothing of course. Getting this title otherwise? No. The requirement is excessive for many and silly because others can just buy it..

Sunspear looked achieveable, until they stopped giving me points.

Lightbringer still is, I guess. 300+ points in under 30 minutes by farming Domain of Secrets. It's a serious grinding exercise, but considerably less than (for example) ale hound and at least you get to hit mobs and actually gain something (skill upgrades, damage protection etc).

I guess I take the view that titles should be challenging, but achievable by anyone with a "reasonable" amount of effort and without excessive expense, or repetitive grinding.

Protector and Cartographer as noted above are excellent examples of this. Time, effort and some dedication required, but not repetitive. I guess Skill Hunter fits here as well.

Certainly, you shouldn't be able to simply "buy" a title.

Having said this, what we cannot do is go back. Some people will already wear these titles and we must not take away the achievement. Leave the status quo in place.

It seems almost inevitable that there will be more titles created as more expansions are released (and I don't just mean Protector & Explorer), but please let's have titles which are interesting challenges. No more like Sweet Tooth.

lyra_song · Feb 20, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I wonder how people would act if Anet implemented how a lot of MMOs do it.

Each character is an individual "account" and your friends would only know you as one character and not an account....

if you wanted to join a guild, youd have to do it with each character.

-------------

On Topic

i mean seriously. This is just frivolous whining. Anet is not deterring you from ANYTHING.

If you want to develop your character, it takes a certain amount of time. Last I checked, this was kind of an RPG of some sort.

Anet's infamous "no grind" boast is applicable to getting to the max level of 20 (different paces across the chapters, but still faster than every other MMO out there) and gaining max armor and max weapons to be fully equipped. Titles, vanity armor, vanity weapons and such all REQUIRE grinding because they are NOT MANDATORY.

The idea is to get you maxed out so you can PLAY THE GAME. You spend less time leveling up and trying to get good weapons and you actually quest and do missions.

I have....*counts* 18 characters. None of them have beaten all 3 games, i only have 1 grandmaster cartographer, and only 1 protector. Im sooo glad that Anet delayed chapter 4, gives me time to actually play more of the game.

Play the game or dont play the game. Please dont complain that you have to play the game, because you dont have to play the game. If its such a drag, just take a break and come back later.

Master Sword Keeper · Feb 20, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Hmm lets see. Monks and necro's:
Playability: 120%

Rangers: 100%

Warriors: A 2ft layer of dust. I'm sorry but i cannot play a game that allows it's warrior class to take hits and not block them...Thats unacceptable.

Elementalist: Enjoying the good looks and the high dmg control.

The bottom line is I used to enjoy my warrior a lot because I could attack and defend whilst doing quests and missions now..I use my necro and my Warrior's are Stagnent. They remain Offline more time than my other char's.

Since the new changes I've gotten bored of the game, but i have adapted to using my necro and ele...Just upset when my friends need a Guardian Warrior or a Runner to help them Finish or speed up a quest cause i cant block anymore...So yes Guild War's/A-Net is deterring me from using my other characters.

There's my answer.

Tromador · Feb 20, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Actually on reflection there is something.

The original poster talks about having to take every character through.

Now I know this sort of contradicts what I was saying earlier, but I guess there is an argument for doing something about Elite skills. If I cap (for example) Shield of Judgement in Mineral Springs once, I'm not sure I want to have to get all the way there again with another character. Any other skill I unlock I can buy across the board - just Elites. Unlocked for PvP, of course, but not PvE.

I'd like to see a mechanism where Elite skills unlock in PvE just as in PvP. Presumably for Skill Hunter title, the character would have to properly CAP them, but that's their choice.

J3mo · Feb 20, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Just don't play on all characters, make choices.
That's what we all have to do

bobrath · Feb 20, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

One interesting thing that occured to me... When you cap an elite or skill with a character it unlocks for their heros as well. Do your other character's heros get this skill unlocked as well (even tho the other character does not)...

Knightsaber Sith · Feb 20, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Heroes can use all skills unlocked for your entire account (anything unlocked for PvP).

BryanM · Feb 20, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Last I checked, this was kind of an RPG of some sort.

Nope. It's soccer.

What was cool was one time I was looking at a port setting labeled "Starcraft" after being directed to it from a setup guide. Either it was labeled as such innately by Windows, or someboooody's not letting go of their old project.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Same fellow

max weapons to be fully equipped

The only max equipment that's not difficult to get are the collector wands, shields and offhands. Unlike elite skills, you can have any character grab one and pass it to his buddy.

Even then, there are not desirable offerings for certain things. Durheim Archives gets you a +1 death, +30 offhand. Good luck getting a wand to go with that attribute from a collector.

Martial weapons and staves require you to hunt a boss, if the particular item you want is even offered as a green. Grind grind grind or stumble across some guy selling it if you're extremely lucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by la de da

Please dont complain that you have to play the game, because you dont have to play the game.

They're complaining they have to do the same thing over and over. Have to. This isn't some frivolous yippity do da stuff - being dead weight to your friends sucks.

Well, I'd like to help get my guild back up to #1 on the competitive mission ladder. Looks like I have some grinding to do now.

Grindy grindy grindy. Grind. Grind.

wetsparks · Feb 20, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Even though I understand where you people are coming from, I think you are being rediculus and unreasonable. To me it's not worth it for my Necro or Monk to do Nightfall, so they wont. They have beaten the other two chapters, might beat chapter 4 with them, but Nightfall doesnt have the replay value to me to do it with all character. But if I do decide to do it, the idea that I can go straight to the end with my Necro because other character on my account have is irrational. Just because I'm good enough to beat Nightfall with my Warrior, doesnt mean I'm good enough with my Necro. That everything has been done for her means I dont have to do anything to improve my Necro, pass Go and collect $100.

So to put it plainy, each character has to do things for themself because it is a roleplaying game. Im playing the role of a character and the character has to go through the story. Since every one is comparing it to other things, lets compare it to something that makes sense. An actor has done a play before, everyone in the audience has seen the play before, so does that mean that the actor just says, "This guy does this, meets him, this happens, THE END?" No because he enjoys performing and the audience enjoys the play, that is why they are seeing it again. If you dont want to see it again, dont watch. Do something else.

lyra_song · Feb 20, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanM

The only max equipment that's not difficult to get are the collector wands, shields and offhands. Unlike elite skills, you can have any character grab one and pass it to his buddy.

Even then, there are not desirable offerings for certain things. Durheim Archives gets you a +1 death, +30 offhand. Good luck getting a wand to go with that attribute from a collector.

Martial weapons and staves require you to hunt a boss, if the particular item you want is even offered as a green. Grind grind grind or stumble across some guy selling it if you're extremely lucky.

Ive made it through Guild Wars with crappy collector weapons and crafted weapons during my first 4-5 runs through it.

You can grind for the ultimate weapon skins, but in this game, its already SOOO easy to get stuff its not even funny.

Weapon mods arent really even neccesary in PvE. All the cool stuff is optional.

Elite skills? In PvE? Elite skills aren't a requirement either. Be realistic. My warrior's elite is [wiki]Charge![/wiki] since its the only elite i consider useful in PvE for her. Its so she can help the party move from killing one mob to the next faster.

Maybe this game is just too easy for me, but imo you dont need to have uber weapons, armor, elite skills to beat this game. Collectors, Crafters and plain vanilla skills kill things fine.

Quote:

They're complaining they have to do the same thing over and over. Have to. This isn't some frivolous yippity do da stuff - being dead weight to your friends sucks.

Well, I'd like to help get my guild back up to #1 on the competitive mission ladder. Looks like I have some grinding to do now.

Grindy grindy grindy. Grind. Grind.

Ya being dead weight to your friends does suck. Im all too aware of this. But perhaps if your friends were willing to help you get to those missions faster, maybe that would speed up your progress.

PvP is about Account Development. Unlocking mods, runes, skills, etc. that can be used in PvP arenas.

PvE is about Character Development. Leveling up, buying armor, generally questing and doing missions.

Both game types have their own types of grind. Guild Wars' game design minimizes pointless grinding (leveling up endlessly) and caps you at 20. So that from that point on, you dont have a to worry if your strong enough to face any future foes because at level 20, you can face anything.

However you still have to realize that each character exists in their own little world, linked by a magic storage account.

I suppose its the double edge of making a game for casual players, its so easy already people except it to be even easier.

BryanM · Feb 20, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

There's no crime worse than mediocrity.

lyra_song, I'm all for the extreme gold sinks that weapon skins and fancy armor presents.

The game isn't challenging, you can beat it with an empty skill bar. I often AFK in missions I've done half a dozen times before, letting the henchmen kill a group while I do something else. Kill a group, move, AFK. That's been about 35% of my GW experience to date.

Being able to create a specific build with maximum effectiveness (max equipment) matters for other reasons:

Masters in some factions maps.

The challenge missions. Killing speed in Dragon's Throat is so important it isn't funny.

PvP - you gain EXP in these battles. I've earned well over 40 skill points on PvP characters, who couldn't make use of them. It's kind of annoying, because while the experience points encourage you to PvP with PvE characters, everything else encourages you to use a PvP character.

lyra_song · Feb 20, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanM

Being able to create a specific build with maximum effectiveness (max equipment) matters for other reasons:

Masters in some factions maps.

Optional.

Quote:

The challenge missions. Killing speed in Dragon's Throat is so important it isn't funny.

I love Dragon's Throat. its my favorite Challenge mission next to Inlet. But ya optional.

Quote:

PvP - you gain EXP in these battles. I've earned well over 40 skill points on PvP characters, who couldn't make use of them. It's kind of annoying, because while the experience points encourage you to PvP with PvE characters, everything else encourages you to use a PvP character.

Yes, its very annoying re-rolling a character who made tons of XP and skill points. All that gone to waste.

There was an inherent imbalance in PvP where PvErs had an advantage in terms of equipment and PvPers had advantage in skills.

I was very vocal in this community about correcting these imbalances and making PvP chars just as viable as PvE chars.

Anet did make PvP characters equal in terms of equipment, but PvE characters are still handicapped when it comes to skills in PvP.

Anet needs to allow PvE characters full access to all unlocked skills when inside of a PvP area.

But thats another matter and not really on topic.

Stig Figger · Feb 20, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucia

1) Don't you just hate it when a friend says something like "let's meet in HzH dist 1" and you are like "oh, wait, my paragon isn't there yet".
...
Have outposts discovered by one character available to all other characters

I agree with the sentiment in the first point, but have an alternate idea for the proposed solution. In Tyria, there are many town-to-town shortcuts where you can get 'run' to, but there's still 'chokepoints' where you have to defeat the primary quests and missions to progress (e.g. Thunderhead Keep). But in Cantha and Elona gates between many towns are 'locked' so you usually can't get run---you must do all primaries and missions to get far into the game. My proposal is that once one character completes primaries+missions for Factions or Nightfall then most of the gates are 'unlocked' for subsequent characters so that they can get 'run' places to at least speed up getting to the far away towns to meet your friends (and/or have them run you).

However, I think there should still be some chokepoint missions, like the ones that are critical to the story. For example, in Factions, you would have to do Vizunah Square, Sunjiang District, Eternal Grove, Gyala Hatchery, Unwaking Waters, Raisu Palace. But you could at least bypass the 10,000 Faction quests and Shing Jea missions. Just a thought.